z:\ ambedkar\vol-02\vol2-06.indd MK SJ+YS 21-9-2013/YS-8-11-2013 464
464 DR. BABASAHEB AMBEDKAR : WRITINGS AND SPEECHES
- There are certain classes which stand midway between touchability and untouchability ?
Dr. Ambedkar : I would rather say they were lower down than the untouchables.
- No, higher up in the social ladder there is a class which is semiuntouchable ?
Dr. Ambedkar : I cannot say. My point is this, that with respect to the criminal tribes we have no data for forming an opinion as to whether they are untouchable or not, because there is very little intercourse between the main body of Hindus and the criminal tribes.
- Leave out of account the criminal tribes and aborigines ; I am now dealing with the untouchables. Among the untouchables themselves there are degrees ; there are certain among them who may be regarded as only semiuntouchable ?
Dr. Ambedkar : (Both witnesses) No.
- I will give you an example. What is the position of the Chambhar ?
Dr. Ambedkar : He is entirely untouchable.
- As much as the Mahar ?
Dr. Ambedkar ; Yes.
- Are you certain of that ?
Dr. Ambedkar : Yes, if you apply this test of common water, or of entering a temple.
- No, by untouchability I mean whose touch will pollute a high caste Hindu ?
Dr. Ambedkar: Well, you can take entering a temple or taking water as a test.
Chairman: After all, we are engaged here primarily in a constitutional and political inquiry. Social customs and deep-rooted religious traditions are not things which are likely to be removed between night and morning by any commission; that is obvious enough. It really comes to this, that in one sense the depressed classes meaning the untouchables, will be those classes who are denied all access to Hindu temples, and who, it is suggested, are deprived very often of the use of schools, of dharmashalas and things of that sort. In addition to those, speaking politically and constitutionally, we shall all agree there are others, not very advanced in the scale of civilisation, such as Sir Hari Singh Gour has referred to—criminal tribes, hill tribes and so on—who are also inhabitants of India and as such demand our attention.
Sir Hari Singh Gour: The Hindus are divided into four castes. The Sudras cannot get into the temples . ……….
Chairman: I think we all appreciate that. However, we are not engaged in making laws for the Hindu religion, but in considering the structure of the constitution of British India, which is a very different thing.
- Taking that figure, what is it that you want to represent as the proper way in which the constitution of India, and more particularly the