PARLIAMENTARY DEBATES 685
lawyers to appear before them, it seems to me that they are acting contrary to the provisions of law. If our Ministers were to observe the common rule that they are not courts and therefore they will not hear any lawyer, I think the practice which has been referred to by my hon. friend Mr. Khandubhai Desai will completely disappear.
Mr. Chairman: Is there any such practice ?
The Prime Minister (Shri Jawaharlal Nehru): I have never heard of this practice or of any instance. I would like it to be stated where this has taken place and when.
Dr. Ambedkar: I do not know. That is what Mr. Khandubhai Desai has said.
The Minister of Works, Production and Supply (Shri Gadgil): On the other hand, the complaint has been that some of us have refused audience to lawyers.
Dr. Ambedkar: That is the proper thing.
Shri Hussain Imam: Have any lawyer Member of Parliament been refused audience by the Hon. Ministers ?
Shri Jawaharlal Nehru : So far as I know, there has been no case of lawyers appearing before the Ministers as lawyers.
Dr. Ambedkar: I do not know what that is : but this is what he said. I think that matter can be regulated in the manner I have suggested. Therefore, no legal provision of that sort is necessary.
I now come to the amendment moved by my hon. Friend Pandit Kunzru. He wants to drop the words “disloyalty to the State”. To some extent, I accept his argument that the wording “disloyalty to the State” is not a very precise phrase. What does it mean ? It has nowhere been defined. But the point is this. When the Select Committee discussed this matter, they were considering two different categories of servants of the State. One was the personnel of the civil services ; they were also considering the army personnel. In